[theme music plays]

Jen: Hi, it’s Jen Richler. Welcome back to Can We Talk?, the podcast of the Jewish Women’s Archive, where gender, history, and Jewish culture meet. 

[theme music fades]

Jen: Dr. Mollie Wallick didn't set out to be a gay rights activist; she stumbled into the role. It was 1983, and Mollie was a guidance counselor at Louisiana State University’s medical school in New Orleans. One day, a student knocked on her door.

Mollie: And he sat there, and I had a difficult time finding any problem. He was doing very well in school, he seemed very accepted and happy, and I didn't know what his problem might be. So I offered to make him tea to make him comfortable, and eventually he told me that he was gay, and that he had had a miserable first semester 

Jen: The student told her he had no one to talk to. In 1983, there were no support groups or resources for gay and lesbian students at LSU, and there was no policy protecting them from discrimination. LSU wasn’t unique, but it was also in the socially conservative south. It wasn’t an easy time or place to be gay.

Mollie: And he wanted to know if I would be a liaison to gay and lesbian medical students and residents. And I told him that I was very interested in doing that. 

The dean supported the concept of a liaison, but he did not support my doing it, because he felt that I was too valuable to him with the general medical community and he thought it would be diluted if I were known to be one who saw gay students. I couldn't disagree with him more.

Jen: A few years later, a new dean took over. 

Mollie: And he said, “Go for it.”

Jen: Mollie became the Student-Faculty Liaison for Gay and Lesbian Issues at Louisiana State University Medical School. Supporting and advocating for gay students was the focus of the remaining two decades of her career. 

[theme music plays]

Mollie told her story in 2005, as part of the Jewish Women's Archive oral history project, Women Who Dared.  

Abe Louise Young: Today's date is January 11, 2005. This is an interview with Dr. Molly Wallach, conducted by Avery L. Young at Dr. Wallick's home in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Jen: In this episode of Can We Talk?, we’ll hear excerpts from Mollie Wallick's interview. This is part of our miniseries showcasing interviews from JWA’s Tanner Oral History Collection. 

As we kick off pride month, Mollie’s story reminds us how much has changed in just a few decades—language, attitudes, and policies. And it offers a glimpse of what it was like to be an advocate for gay students at a time when their school—and society in general—offered few resources and many obstacles. 

[theme music fades]

Mollie: I was born in New Orleans at Baptist Hospital in August of 1926.

Abe Louise: And did you grow up in New Orleans? 

I grew up in New Orleans. I've never lived anywhere else.

Abe Louise: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and your upbringing? 

Mollie: Well, I recall my childhood as a happy one, uh, intertwined with celebration of my Jewishness. Although the elementary school that my brother and I attended, uh, had no other Jews, we had access to many Jewish peers at our Sunday school and at Shabbat services that we attended in our Orthodox community. 

My parents were not activists, but they certainly exemplified a lot of traits that we consider valuable in Judaism. They were accepting of others, they did good deeds, and they practiced tzedakah. 

My grandfather was a very important person in my life. He was a very gentle, learned man. And he was remarkably accepting of differences exemplified by people in the family and by others. He valued people as they were, and I admired that so much. I think I got my love of human rights from my grandfather.

Jen: Molly went to college at the University of New Orleans, where she later got a PhD in early childhood and special education. She married Mayer Wallick in 1946, when he returned from serving in World War II. 

Mollie started her career as a teacher and a Hebrew school director and then directed the therapeutic nursery school at LSU medical school, where she worked with kids with autism. Eventually, she transitioned to counseling medical students. She became the liaison for gay students in 1985.

It was a pivotal time for gay rights. In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association  removed homosexuality from their manual of disorders. The AIDS crisis in the '80s galvanized the gay community and brought increased visibility. At the same time, AIDS carried a stigma that some people used to justify their homophobia. And many people, including some doctors at LSU med school, still saw homosexuality as abnormal. 

Mollie saw many signs of homophobia in her community. She remembered meeting the parents of the medical student who first asked her to be a liaison for gay students

Mollie: The young man was not known as gay to his family. And when I met them at his graduation, I had a poignant moment when I realized that I knew more in a meaningful way. about their son than they did. And the reason he had not shared it was he knew of their homophobic attitudes, and he could not risk it.

Jen: At LSU, Mollie regularly organized panels of doctors and nurses to talk about working with gay patients—a topic that was rarely addressed in medical school at the time. She made a point of inviting panelists who were all gay themselves; that was an even more uncommon choice. 

Mollie: It was difficult at LSU, because we have essentially Louisiana residents, many of whom are not exposed—or don't know that they're exposed—to anyone who is gay. And sometimes after a presentation, uh, a student would come down and offer to save my panel, that you can be saved—it's not too late.

Jen: Once, Mollie sent an email about a scholarship for gay and lesbian medical students. 

Mollie: One student wrote that, “This is ridiculous. Take me off your email list. I believe that gays lack moral standards.” And that's a quote.Another student wrote, quote, “As a Christian, I don't hate gay folks, but I know that the Bible considers them sinners. And then he went on to say, “Jesus loves you, and died for you, and you should question your thoughts about Jesus and the things you support.” I was—

Abe Louise:  Obviously didn't know you were Jewish. 

Mollie: Obviously didn't know and didn't care. I did not answer either student, but I went to the new dean, and my disappointment with him was that I insisted that neither student would function well without a lot of sensitivity training. The dean thought that this was a case of the students having a right to express themselves and he disagreed with me. I was sorely disappointed with his response, so that was my problem with the dean. 

My other problems were with some straight faculty—medical school faculty—who thought that I was giving disproportionate time to gay students—not true—and some students, who resented, uh, the additional time given to homosexuality in the curriculum, and of course resented that email that I sent to the class.

So I had a little bit of difficulty, and actually there was some fallout from that. I lost my status as a favorite professor from that time on, due to my support of the gay community.

But it was well worth the work. And I have to say that, with the strong approval of the chancellor and of my former dean, uh, I gained acceptance in the national community through articles and book chapters, discussions, workshops, and plenary sessions. So I was happy to accept my comeuppance and do what I did.

Abe Louise: How has the world changed for gay and lesbian medical students?

Mollie: Well, I think that we at LSU have brought an awareness to the national community and, uh, an acceptance that certainly wasn't considered two decades ago when I proposed to do this. At the time, they thought that, first of all, there were no gays in most medical schools, and there were no problems on any campus.

So I think that we did bring awareness, and I think there is, in general, much more acceptance now. We did a lot of surveys in our research of the way that, uh, homosexuality was taught at medical schools and found that the time that was devoted was certainly not adequate.

And also, in anti-discrimination, we found there were no policies at most schools. When we did the survey, there was no policy at LSU, but later, thanks to the chancellor, uh, who included sexual orientation as a protected category, there became acceptance at LSU. And with the stroke of the chancellor's pen, he impacted the lives of more than 5,000 students and 2,000 faculty and staff at six professional schools in New Orleans and Shreveport. So I was very happy about that. Certainly we made some changes in Louisiana, and I think that's true around the country.

I had an interesting experience when some students asked if I was also gay—didn't ask this out loud, but asked of another student who knew me. I've never told anyone that I'm not. And many of my medical students, because of my activity, think that I am, and I've never corrected that impression.

And I do have one favorite story to tell you about that. It took place at the dean's party for the graduating seniors. And I had greeted a young woman graduate, and told her, “I'd like you to meet my husband,” who was turned in conversation with another person at the time. And she looked at me incredulously and said, “Dr.Wallick, you're married??” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Does your husband know??” And I replied, “Yes.” And that's all I told her. And she stood there with her mouth open. And I introduced her to my husband, they had a conversation, and I think to this day, she's bewildered by the interchange.

Abe Louise: That is very funny. What was behind your choice not to, um, confirm for people that you were heterosexual? 

Mollie: I didn't just think there was any reason to do that. And if they—if I had been asked that while I was on the podium, I would have said, “I don't think the answer to that question is important, so I'll choose not to answer that.”

Abe Louise: Were you involved in the women's movement or the feminist movement at all? 

Mollie: I was involved in the women's movement, not actively, but very supportive of everything that they did. And I have to say that being a woman probably facilitated my work as an activist in gay rights. Uh, because women are nurturing and supportive and, known to be. And they're very, uh, indebted to finishing a task that they think is important. And I think all of those traits were very helpful to me as an activist in the area of gay rights. And I think that probably facilitated my acceptance in my role as liaison, particularly by gay students.

The secret is availability—being available to students, keeping an open door when you're working in your office, which indicates, “I can be disturbed, come right in.”

Abe Louise: What is the secret to being a passionate activist? 

Mollie: I think the secret to being a passionate activist is being a caring person who genuinely accepts differences in people. I'm reminded of something told to me by Rabbi Steven Greenberg. Rabbi Greenberg proposed a blessing women recite as appropriate for all men as well. And it is, I quote, “Blessed are you, Lord our God, who created me just as you wanted me to be.” I love that.

Jen: That was Dr. Mollie Wallick. In 2002, Mollie received the Human Rights Campaign Lifetime Achievement Award for Outstanding Leadership and Service to the Lesbian and Gay Community. She retired that same year to care for her husband, whose health was declining. He died in 2004, and she died of breast cancer a few years later in 2008. She was 82 years old. 

Mollie’s research about resources for LGBTQ+ students and how homosexuality is taught in US medical schools is still cited today. Although there is still much work to do and new threats to confront, many policies and resources Mollie helped put in place are standard practice on US campuses today. 

You can hear Mollie’s full interview, and over 300 more interviews with remarkable women, in JWA’s Tanner oral history collection at jwa.org/oralhistory.

Thank you for joining us for Can We Talk?, the podcast of the Jewish Women’s Archive. Our team includes Nahanni Rous and Judith Rosenbaum. Our theme music is by Girls in Trouble. You can find us at jwa.org/canwetalk or on your favorite podcast app, and you can sign up to get our monthly newsletter at jwa.org/signup.

I’m Jen Richler, until next time!