Hi, it’s Jen Richler. Welcome back to Can We Talk?, the podcast of the Jewish Women’s Archive, where gender, history, and Jewish culture meet.

It was late 2020, deep into the pandemic, and JOIN for Justice, the Jewish Organizing Institute and Network based in Boston, had a problem. With widespread lockdowns and concerns about public safety, it was clear their in-person organizing fellowship wasn’t going to happen. But the pandemic also presented an opportunity. More and more things were happening virtually, which made them more accessible to people with disabilities. JOIN decided to hold their 2021 fellowship online and specifically for disabled Jewish organizers.

Over seven months, 20 Jewish young adults met online for JOIN’s Access to Power Fellowship. They had a wide range of disabilities—and racial and gender identities. And they were passionate about a variety of social movements: Black liberation, LGBTQ+ rights, environmental justice, and more. Together, they honed their organizing skills and got inspired to think more broadly and boldly about disability inclusion.

Abby: We need to really blow open that view of disability, blow open that view of inclusion. And I think it really needs to be by disabled people, for disabled people.

Jen: In this episode, we're talking to the Access to Power director and two participants about how the fellowship shaped them, how their Jewish and disabled identities intersect, and why disabled people should be at the forefront of movements for social change.

Allegra: I'm Allegra Heath-Stout. I go by she/her/hers, and I'm in the process of relocating from Arlington, Massachusetts to San Francisco. And I am 33 years old, and I'm the Director of Programs and Disability Initiatives at JOIN for Justice.

Abby: I'm Abby Bresler. I use she/they pronouns. I'm based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I'm 24 years old and I am the Jewish Youth Climate Movement Manager, which is a program of Adamah.

Emunah: My name is Emunah Woolf. I use they/them pronouns. I'm 22 years old. I live in Toronto, Ontario, and I work at the local Jewish Community Center at the Miles Nadal JCC, doing LGBTQ Jewish community programming, often with a disability twist.

Jen: So Emunah and Abby, you both did this fellowship. Abby, can you say, first, a little bit about your experience in that fellowship, what you did and why it was important for you?

Abby: Yeah, so before I came into this fellowship, I had actually never been in a space that was entirely with disabled people—let alone disabled Jews, disabled organizers, disabled young Jews, many of whom were also queer. And I think having that space was incredibly special and important during the pandemic where it was quite isolating, and to have a community of people who just got it, who had been through a lot of the same experiences as me, had the same values and goals for social justice, was absolutely amazing.

And I also saw access modeled in a way that I had never before. And I still think about that. We were truly trying to practice what we preached: There was always captioning. There was always ASL interpretation. I learned the importance of talking slowly, so people could understand me, which was something I had not been great at and still am working on.

I learned things like you should spell hard-to-spell words so an ASL interpreter knows what you're talking about and can communicate that. You should wait until you're pinned on Zoom to speak so people can see you. And you can ask for access requests in real time and meet each other's needs. And I think there's a lot I have known about disability in theory, and it's a whole other thing putting it into practice.

Emunah: I think, also, the pandemic was super isolating for a lot of people, but I think for disabled and chronically ill people in particular. I know that, like, while other people by, you know, summer 2021 were, kind of, leaving the house more and becoming more comfortable going out, it still felt really risky for me to do that. And to have, kind of, this consistent space to connect with other folks who might have been in similar situations or were thinking about similar access needs was really, I think, vital for me to feel okay in those months.

And I also learned about all of the different things that organizing can look like, from organizing to local politicians to organizing just within the organization that you're part of, even in terms of advocating for access for yourself in non-organizational ways or non-organizational spaces.

So to understand that all of these things are different kinds of organizing and all of these things are important can feel really healing within—sometimes, in the activism/organizing space, if you're not, kind of, out on the street every day, it can be seen as kind of a lesser form of work. And as disabled folks, that isn't always possible for us.

Jen: What do you think that having a disability brings to the experience of organizing and activism?

Abby: For me, having a disability and being an organizer means there's always this lens through which I'm seeing any issue, any interaction. And I'm thinking about it on a lot of levels, right? I'm thinking about the issue at hand, which for me is often not disability, it's often climate or something Jewish or social justice in general. And I'm always thinking about, Are my access needs going to be met? Are other people's access needs going to be met?

And because I have experienced a lot of ableism and I don't want others to, I also don't want other people to experience other forms of oppression, and I've thought a lot and learned a lot about intersectionality and, in general, anti-oppression and inclusion and equity and whatever words you want to use to describe—just that everyone should be able to be a leader and thrive in the spaces that they want.

Um, I've also learned a lot about how making a space accessible has all these other benefits, especially if you're thinking beyond accessibility more towards, just, disability justice, which is a movement, a term, a set of principles and so much more. And so, by incorporating disability justice—thinking about all of these ways that you can make things accessible both physically, but also culturally and also beyond just accessibility—we're setting up movements to win.

And I also think that people with disabilities are closest to a lot of the problems. I have a respiratory condition that makes it hard for me to breathe when it's hot out and when there's wildfire smoke and when there's fossil fuel pollution. Like, I've been told, “Wow, your lungs are really the canary in the coal mine of the climate crisis.”

And so I think those who are closest to the problems are often closest to the solutions and can lead. And we disabled people have been adapting and thriving in environments that weren't built for us forever. And so with a lot of social justice issues, we have a lot to offer.

Allegra: Yeah, and I also think about the way that disabled people know the importance of interdependence, because our lives depend on it.

We know that we need each other in a way where non-disabled people might be able to forget that because of the way that the world is already set up for them. Whereas disabled people know that we need physical care and emotional care and medical care and interpreters and other types of access professionals and more to make our lives possible. And I think that exposing those networks of care and interdependence can really strengthen our movements because it, uh, just makes clear how much we all need each other.

Emunah: I think a lot of times outside of disability justice spaces, accessibility is kind of thought of as like a checklist of, Do we have captions? Do we have this? Do we have that? And the disability spaces I've been in really think of it more as, How can we have a kind of this communal responsibility to meet individual needs?”

It taught me to think a lot about conflicts of access. So, like, one thing that came up a lot in community work during the pandemic was [that] a lot of immunocompromised folks really needed everyone to be wearing masks. And a lot of deaf and hard of hearing folks, or other folks that relied on lip reading for communication, were finding that really difficult.

So instead of just saying, you know, either everyone has to mask or saying everyone has to have their lips visible, how can we really, like, get into the weeds and think about how to make sure that everyone's access needs are being met?

Jen: How do you see your disabled and Jewish identities intersecting?

Emunah: They're pretty necessarily entwined with one another. I almost think it's not worth thinking about them as distinct, a lot of the time. They are my experience, both/and, all of the time. Until pretty recently, I was always feeling, kind of like, when I was getting involved in different movements, I had to leave parts of myself at the door.

It was like, I am doing queer organizing work. I am doing Jewish organizing work. I am in a disability space. And the really beautiful thing about working and learning with other folks that really sat in the intersections of their identities, and really kind of brought all of that to the table, was that it taught me the value of doing the same.

And then I think, also, disability justice values, a lot of those values are modeled on Jewish values as well. And there are overlaps there. So when I think about rest, I think about Jewish principles of Shabbat and shmita, and there's all these cycles that really necessitate rest in our tradition, and the disability justice also values the rest.

So really finding those links, and rooting myself in the origins of those links in both, kind of,communities and movements, has been really helpful at feeling like, not only am I not leaving parts of myself at the door, but actually, like, a lot of these values come from all of these places and are reflected in these different movements.

Jen: Abby, how about you?

Abby: I think some of the most joyful spaces I've been in have been Jewish and disabled, and that's been really special. Like Emunah said, I do think there's a lot of Jewish teachings that teach us about disability justice. I think a lot of b'tzelem Elohim—we were all created in the image of God—and kevod haBriyot—honoring the dignity of all—they really embody disability justice and are built right into Judaism. And I think, for me, it's been fun to, kind of, come into my disability identity and my identity as a Jewish adult, kind of choosing for myself and creating for myself what types of Judaism I want to pursue, at, really, the same time.

And having disabled Jewish communities be a part of that journey has really helped me affirm that Judaism is big enough to hold everything that I want and need. And seeing spaces that are Jewish and really inclusive has been extremely powerful, especially after some spaces I have been in that weren't that inclusive and welcoming.

Allegra: I had an “aha!” moment several years ago in the relationship between my Jewishness and my disability identity, where at first the main intersection that I saw was, well, you know, I'm a disability organizer, I can try to make my Jewish communities more accessible, so that disabled people can be a part of these communities more.

Um, and then I was lucky enough to attend an event where Rabbi Julia Watts Belser was teaching. And she really opened up for me the spiritual intersections of Judaism and disability. And then I began to explore things like the values that Abby and Emunah have been talking about and, really, looking for the connections between disability wisdom and Torah wisdom.

Or like, for instance, Rabbi Lauren Tuchman is another disabled teacher, and from her I learned about Moses as a disabled leader and what we can all learn from that about our own leadership. And I think that finding these disabled Jewish teachers to follow on a spiritual level has really enriched my life, too.

Jen: Abby and Emunah, you've both talked about how these two identities, Jewish and disabled, also intersect with queer identity. And that's something I'd love to hear a little bit about from each of you.

Emunah: I think for me, my queer identities were some of the first spaces where I recognized the systems that I was in were not designed for me, and [I] had to do some sort of differentiating myself or asking for things that I needed that were somewhat outside of what was expected or what was the norm. And that kind of thread has followed me through other identities and journeys, as well. But I think the flexibility and the ability to kind of look at a system and say, “This script isn't working for me, what might work instead?” felt very queer to me.

And I draw on that kind of thinking and that kind of reimagining a different and, in some ways, better future in my Jewish community work, in my disability work. All of these things, I think, for me, have been about kind of zooming out and saying, “This future that I was offered is not going to work for me. What is a different future I can imagine that works for me, works for my community, works, maybe, for the world?”  

Abby: It's really cool to hear more about your journey, Emunah, because it sounds like you came into your queer identity and then that shed light on your disability identity. And for me, it was the other way around. I really figured out, like, “Whoa, all of these experiences I'm having are really a part of having a disability,” and went through the process of understanding that and exploring that and really claiming that and seeking community first.

And then it actually really provided a cool roadmap for me to do the same with my queerness. I think I was—already had gone through the process of realizing that I had an identity and an experience that was different than a lot of the people around me. And that although it had a stigma, it was actually really awesome and really powerful to claim it and find community and really be able to step into myself and my own identities and power. And so, as you said, Emunah, I think once you realize that you don't have to stick in any boxes, it's really amazing what you can come up with…and realizing both, I think, in my queer life and my disabled life, I can do whatever works for me.

And that's awesome. And I think that it's a real freedom.

Jen: Shifting a little bit, I think that there's a perception, at least by some, that Jewish organizations—and I'm using quotes here—are “good at inclusion.” But I want to hear what you all think about that.

Allegra: I mean, I think it's definitely true that huge strides have been made and that many Jewish communities—both religious communities and other types of cultural institutions—have done incredible work for access and inclusion. I'm thinking about work like making rituals accessible, making buildings accessible, providing interpreters, educating about disability within communities. And at the same time, I think that, of course, there's a long way to go.

And I think that a lot of the work that has happened has often followed a model of trying to help disabled people and seeing people with disabilities as recipients of that help. You know, providing programs for people with disabilities, um, leaders of communities who are non-disabled thinking about what disabled people need and then trying to make it happen, rather than really developing and then following the leadership of people with disabilities, like we tried to do in the Access to Power Fellowship.

And so when I think about what I would hope for to be next in Jewish communities on disability, that's really what I imagine: It's the centering of the leadership of disabled people. You know, not just, “How do you sit in the congregation?” but, “How do you get up on the bimah and have access to lead services or lead whatever the ritual might be?” And then also, I'd love to see congregations and other Jewish organizations doing more centering of disability teaching, focusing on “What do we all have to learn from disability wisdom?”

Abby: I do think there is a perception in the Jewish community, like, “We're doing really well on disability.” And I think that that's based on a pretty narrow view of disability and a pretty narrow view of inclusion.

And I do think that actually that identity–the pride around doing well—might make it hard to actually do what we need to do, which is, really, blow open that view of disability, blow open that view of inclusion. And I think it really needs to be by disabled people, for disabled people. We all have amazing loved ones that support us. And the family members and friends of people with disabilities can't be given the microphone as much as they have, because it really does perpetuate a harmful narrative that non-disabled people know what's best for disabled people and can speak for us.

And also, as someone with an invisible disability, I don't really see a lot of representation in Jewish narratives of disability, and I think we really need to be talking about a wider range of disabilities…kind of, like, this idea of “big tent disability,” as we have, hopefully, “big tent Judaism.” And, really, there's a lot more disabilities than you think, and it includes a lot of invisible ones and a lot of chronic illnesses and a lot of mental illnesses, and we do need to be talking about those, and including all of those people as well.

And also, I've seen a lot of narratives in the Jewish community that value disabled people being a part of the workforce or excelling at something, like being a Paralympian, for example. And disabled people are valid for just existing. We don't have to contribute to capitalism, we don't have to be [at] the top of our field. And I really want to see more everyday narratives of disability. I cannot relate to a Paralympian! That is not me, never gonna be me, never was me. I would love to be hearing from, just like, average young people about their lives.

Emunah: A lot of times disability seems more like a service or kind of charity project in Jewish organizations, rather than a community space.

When I started working at the JCC, we had community programs, we had “LGBTQ at the J,” which is what I do, we had “Jewish&,” which focuses on interfaith and intercultural Jews. And they had an access and inclusion department, but it wasn't at all connected to the community programming groups.

And, kind of, bridging those silos and thinking about disability as an important identity that also intersects with these other identities as something that deserves space to be a community without it necessarily being from, like, a helping perspective—and I have that in air quotes— feels really important.

Jen: The other facet I've heard discussed is the idea that sometimes people with disabilities can be made to feel that their purpose in these kinds of conversations is to either share all the difficult things that they've had to overcome and also to be sort of an inspiration.

Emunah: When these kinds of conversations happen, it feels sometimes like we're saying, “You need to go through these really, like, traumatic and isolating and exclusionary experiences to be able to learn organizing.” But actually the goal is for folks to not have to go through those things and to be in communities and come into leadership in communities without having to say, “I'm a good leader in this community because I know what it's like to not feel like you can be part of a community.”

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Abby: There's this perception that like, “Where are these young disabled Jewish leaders?” And here we are! We’re ready to be leaders! And I want the Jewish community to be ready to follow and listen. And here we are.

Jen: That was Abby Bresler. You also hear from Emunah Woolf and Allegra Heath-Stout.

To learn more about community organizing through a Jewish lens, check out JOIN for Justice's online course, Don't Kvetch, Organize! Register by October 16 to participate in the seven-week course from Nov. 6-Dec. 18. It’s open to anyone, and people with disabilities can register for a dedicated cohort. Learn more and register at www.joinforjustice.org.

And you can learn more about some of the disability justice resources mentioned in this episode by checking out our show notes at jwa.org/canwetalk or in your favorite podcast player.

Thank you for joining us for Can We Talk?, the podcast of the Jewish Women’s Archive. Our team includes Nahanni Rous and Judith Rosenbaum.  Our theme music is by Girls In Trouble.

You can listen to Can We Talk? at jwa.org/canwetalk, or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can help spread the word about the podcast by leaving us a rating and review in Apple Podcasts.

I’m Jen Richler. Until next time!

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